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L.A. Times Owner Says He Will Take Newspaper Public in Next Year

Tue, 22 Jul 2025 07:39:25 +0300

Dr. Patrick Soon-Shiong did not share details about the planned offering. The newspaper has not been profitable under him, and his job cuts have angered staff.

White House Bans Wall Street Journal From Press Pool on Trump’s Scotland Trip

Tue, 22 Jul 2025 02:05:55 +0300

The president sued the publication last week, accusing it of defamation for an article about his ties to the disgraced former financier Jeffrey Epstein.

The Inside Story of Notre-Dame’s Incredible Reconstruction | Philippe Villeneuve | TED

Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:01:11 +0300

Maddie, a Coonhound Who Awed Instagram by Balancing on Things, Dies at 14

Sun, 20 Jul 2025 18:16:51 +0300

In thousands of photos, Maddie stood tall and seemingly unbothered atop fences, cars, road signs and tires, garnering 1.2 million Instagram followers along the way.

The Delicious Potential of Rescuing Wasted Food | Jasmine Crowe-Houston | TED

Sun, 20 Jul 2025 18:01:02 +0300

Pet Owner Flooded With Puzzling Calls About a Lost Cat While Hers Is Safely at Home

Sun, 20 Jul 2025 01:18:30 +0300

Natasha Lavoie’s phone number appeared on a T-shirt sold online that advertised a fictitious missing cat. She can’t stop the calls from coming.

Brett Cooper Is Spreading Conservatism, One Celebrity Drama at a Time

Sat, 19 Jul 2025 23:13:22 +0300

The YouTuber set out to reach young conservatives who felt alienated by mainstream culture. Now she is the newest face at Fox News, though dreaming of her own Goop.

NPR and PBS Face Federal Funding Cuts: What to Know

Sat, 19 Jul 2025 18:52:12 +0300

Cutting funding from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting could be catastrophic for local stations, particularly those in rural areas.

Trump Sues Wall Street Journal for Article on Note to Epstein

Sat, 19 Jul 2025 04:13:22 +0300

The lawsuit argues that The Journal falsely claimed President Trump “authored, drew and signed” a lewd birthday card to Jeffrey Epstein.

Stephen Colbert’s ‘Late Show’ Was Losing Millions at CBS Before Cancellation

Sat, 19 Jul 2025 00:47:29 +0300

CBS could not figure out a path to profitability in an entertainment world increasingly dominated by streaming.

How a Video Studio Embraced A.I. and Stormed the Internet

Sat, 19 Jul 2025 00:22:39 +0300

The Dor Brothers are indie filmmakers whose viral videos are generated entirely by artificial intelligence.

Table for one? Yes, please. #TEDTalks

Fri, 18 Jul 2025 19:00:27 +0300

How to Spot Fake AI Photos | Hany Farid | TED

Fri, 18 Jul 2025 18:01:39 +0300

Trump’s NPR and PBS Funding Cuts Were Decades in the Making

Fri, 18 Jul 2025 17:30:19 +0300

The cuts speak to President Trump’s grip on his party but also to the sweeping changes in media.

Sol Stern, Lapsed Liberal and Conservative Heretic, Dies at 89

Fri, 18 Jul 2025 16:59:30 +0300

A writer, editor and political adviser, he broke with the left over its criticism of Israel and what he saw as its anti-Americanism. But he also became a critic of Donald Trump.

Netflix’s Net Income Leaps to $3.1 Billion

Fri, 18 Jul 2025 04:21:08 +0300

It was another strong quarter for the streaming giant, which generated $11.1 billion in revenue.

Steve Benson, a Skewering, Pulitzer-Winning Cartoonist, Dies at 71

Thu, 17 Jul 2025 22:12:48 +0300

With national reach, he won the prize in 1993 and was a finalist for it four times while at The Arizona Republic. Some of his work rankled his own Mormon community.

Why Work Won’t Love You Back (and That’s OK) (w/ Sarah Jaffe) | How to Be a Better Human | TED

Thu, 17 Jul 2025 19:48:47 +0300

Helping Stakeholders Help Themselves

Thu, 17 Jul 2025 19:30:06 +0300

Helping Stakeholders Help Themselves written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch talks with Bill Shander, information designer, data communications expert, and founder of Beehive Media. Bill shares insights from his new book, “Stakeholder Whispering: Uncover What People Need Before Doing What They Ask.” The conversation covers how to turn complex data into clear, actionable stories, the importance of questioning order-taking, and why active listening and genuine curiosity are the keys to building trust and delivering what stakeholders truly need. Listeners will learn practical strategies for stakeholder engagement, leadership, and data-driven decision-making in the age of AI.

About the Guest

Bill Shander is a data communications expert, information designer, and founder of Beehive Media. With over 25 years of experience, he has helped leading organizations—including the United Nations, World Bank, and Deloitte—turn complex ideas into clear, actionable stories. Bill is a recognized thought leader in data visualization, storytelling, and stakeholder engagement, and is the author of “Stakeholder Whispering: Uncover What People Need Before Doing What They Ask.”

Website: billshander.com
LinkedIn: Bill Shander

Actionable Insights

Data storytelling is about communicating meaning and insight, not just sharing numbers and reports.
Order-taking leads to missed opportunities; real value comes from questioning, listening, and guiding stakeholders to what they truly need.
Active listening, curiosity, and asking better questions are essential for building trust and uncovering stakeholders’ real objectives.
Silence is a powerful tool for reflection and better conversation—embrace the pause to allow deeper thinking.
Stakeholder engagement applies to all roles, not just marketing—including HR, IT, and leadership.
Recognize and prioritize all stakeholders—sometimes the real goals and needs come from several layers up in the organization.
In hybrid and remote work environments, intentional communication and Socratic questioning are even more important.
Organizational culture and leadership openness determine how effective “stakeholder whispering” can be—seek or build a culture that values questioning and strategic thinking.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

00:45 – What is a Data Communication Expert?
Bill explains the importance of storytelling and visualization in making data meaningful.
01:44 – Why Stakeholder Whispering Matters More Than Ever
Why questioning and guiding stakeholders is critical in the age of AI and short attention spans.
04:28 – Beyond Order-Taking: Leading with Questions
Bill shares why challenging requests and using a consultative approach delivers better results.
07:41 – The Power of Active Listening and Curiosity
Tips for asking better questions and truly hearing stakeholders’ needs.
09:16 – Silence is Golden
The value of pausing, reflection, and pacing in communication and presentations.
10:28 – Common Pitfalls: Mistaking Tasks for Outcomes
Why focusing only on what’s requested misses the real goals.
12:58 – Recognizing the Real Stakeholders
How to identify and prioritize who really matters in any project or initiative.
15:13 – Culture, Leadership, and Whisperability
The role of culture and leadership in fostering open, strategic conversations.
17:01 – Adapting Stakeholder Engagement to Hybrid and Remote Work
Why face-to-face or Socratic dialogue is essential for discovering true needs.
18:58 – Real-World Example: The Power of Questioning Assumptions
Bill tells a client story where open-ended questioning led to a far better outcome.

Pulled Quotes

“Our job is not just to execute tasks—it’s to succeed and help our organization succeed. That means probing, questioning, and challenging the status quo.”
— Bill Shander

“Active listening, curiosity, and asking the right questions are what build trust and uncover what stakeholders really need.”
— Bill Shander

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:00.878)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Bill Shander. He's a data communications expert, information designer and founder of Beehive Media. Over 25 years of experience, Bill has helped leading organizations, including United Nations, World Bank and Deloitte turn complex ideas into clear, actionable stories. We're going to talk about his latest book today, Stakeholder Whispering, Uncover What People Need.

before doing what they ask. So Bill, welcome to the show.

Bill Shander (00:34.34)

Thank you, John. I'm really happy to be here.

John Jantsch (00:36.736)

So I just, sometimes people have things in their bios that I have to ask about. So what does a data communication expert do?

Bill Shander (00:45.654)

That's a good question. So, you know, everybody these days has data, whether it's your sales data, your marketing data, your HR data, everybody has data. We're always packaging it up in PowerPoint presentations to present to our bosses or reports for the board or whoever. And people don't really do a very good job of it either because they're not really thinking about communicating ideas. They're worried about shoving numbers at people. And so I help people.

John Jantsch (01:09.314)

Yeah. Right.

Bill Shander (01:12.216)

tell stories of data, as well as visualize that data in an impactful way.

John Jantsch (01:16.462)

Yeah. And I think there's probably a lot of people, myself included, that I want to hear the story. Like, what does this data mean? you know, rather than just saying, look, we got this much traffic. Okay. Is that good? Is that bad? Yeah. So what inspired you to write the book? I mean, is there, is there something going on today, you know, in the business world that you think it makes this idea more critical?

Bill Shander (01:22.553)

Yeah.

Bill Shander (01:29.014)

Exactly. How many clicks is good? Are clicks even useful? We don't know.

Bill Shander (01:44.378)

That's a good question. I don't know if today it's more critical in that this has always been an issue, honestly. I've been looking at it for 30 years and took me a long time to realize that this is the thing. Like I've been thinking about doing a book for a long time and this was finally the idea of the nugget that said, yes, this must be done. It's been an issue that's been around forever. Is it more important today than ever? I would say maybe possibly because of AI. mean, okay, we're already talking about AI, know, it's 2025, of course you have to, but.

Honestly, when you ask AI to do something, it just does it. AI is an order taker. And we as humans, what can we do better than AI today? Maybe we can still discern, what really should be done? And maybe we can ask good follow-up questions on all the kinds of things that I talk about in the book that we have to do in order to make sure we're delivering against the right tasks. AI is just going to do it. So it's even more important for that reason.

John Jantsch (02:19.064)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (02:38.198)

Yeah. You know, it's interesting. mean, I think you can make a case for being more important today and in some ways, because what you mentioned AI actually allows us to crunch a lot more data than we ever would have been able to in some cases. so we certainly have that even the smallest of companies have access now to big crunching. But I think also, I noticed a lot of people, stakeholders included, you know, have much shorter attention spans. And so,

Bill Shander (02:57.082)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:04.258)

You know, that 27 page PowerPoint deck, you know, can be condensed into a story or a metaphor. You know, that might actually be a better way to present the information.

Bill Shander (03:15.748)

Well, that's it. so stakeholder whispering is, you the basic idea is your stakeholders ask you to do things based on their automated response. How do we usually do it? Well, usually we put it to 27 page PowerPoint deck together. And the problem is to what you said, you know, first of all, attention spans are shrinking a hundred other reasons why that may not be the best solution. But on top of that, like,

I mean, they don't even know what they need. They're just going to go with the automated response. And so our job as workers, and it doesn't matter what role you're in, if it's marketing, great, but HR people need this, IT people, finance, et cetera. Whatever we're working on, we need to question the ask, know, question that automated response. Maybe it is a PowerPoint deck that's needed, or maybe not to your point.

John Jantsch (04:03.928)

So you mentioned the word order taking, know, I actually, ironically, somebody just said this to me the other day. We have to, you know, we have to sell them what they want so that we can get the trust to sell them what they need. You've probably heard that before and you're kind of advocating for the idea that, no, we need to lead them to what they need and not, you know, and maybe use numbers to help do that. Talk a little more about that idea of beyond order taking.

Bill Shander (04:15.502)

Yeah. Yeah.

Bill Shander (04:28.738)

Yeah. And what you just said is also true, right? Like you do have to gain trust before you can lead them effectively. But yes, the fact is our stakeholders don't know what they need and our job is to guide them. I often say it's like therapy. I have a whole chapter in the book about how to conduct a therapy session because it is very much like therapy. Someone comes to a therapist because they have an issue and they need help. And the therapist doesn't tell them what to do.

They ask them questions. say, well, how does that make you feel? Right? And the questions, right. And the questions allow you to look inside yourself and say, wait, yeah. How does that make me feel? And so in work, okay, you know, we're launching a new product marketing, make us a brochure. Okay. You know, why would a brochure be better than an app or better than this, that, or the other? Huh? Yeah. Maybe, maybe we should do an app. that introspective opportunity is what guides us down the road towards maybe another option.

John Jantsch (04:56.406)

Yeah. Why do we want that?

Bill Shander (05:24.634)

you know, when you're new, like you're in a new role, new boss, whatever, you haven't gained that trust yet, maybe all you do is you try one thing, one question, which is, the question could be, how do we measure success? How are we gonna know this is gonna, when this has worked, how are we gonna measure that? And just that one question, it's not gonna get them all the way to some new way of thinking maybe.

but it's an initial ask. It's at least one step beyond overtaking. And then over time, you'll gain more trust and you'll be able to sort of expand on that guidance way of thinking about it.

John Jantsch (05:58.144)

You know, what I have found is, is that's a, that's an incredible technique in selling. you know, a lot of times people will come to us and say, want this, listen, this. and if, if we have the posture or the courage to back up and say what you said, how will that, how will we know that's successful? What would success look like? How are we going to measure that? have you considered, I find a lot of times people will put their guard down then and like, we're going to actually have a conversation about.

Bill Shander (06:04.793)

It is.

John Jantsch (06:26.764)

what we should be doing, I don't have to pretend I know what to tell you to do. And I find it very disarming in a sales conversation. I mean, not to the level of being obnoxious, you know what I mean? But definitely to the level of saying, let's think about insights instead of actions.

Bill Shander (06:30.658)

Right.

Bill Shander (06:36.42)

Totally, you're building trust.

Bill Shander (06:40.9)

Yeah.

Bill Shander (06:45.806)

Yeah, you're building trust the moment you do that, especially in the sales context when there's, there's that built in lack of trust in a way. And on top of that, you know, what, what I found in my career, the only success I've had in my career is because I was good at the skills, stakeholder whispering. And, know, part of that is no question. It's the consultative approach. I'm not here.

to sell you widgets, I'm here to solve your problems. I'm here to actually help you succeed. And when you really honestly are doing that, then that includes, yeah, that asking questions like that, will lead to the right solution, not just a solution that puts dollars in my pocket.

John Jantsch (07:22.552)

So of course you're implying that you have to actually care about getting them a result, right? Yeah. So we've covered one side of it, asking better questions, but what role does actually being a better listener play in this?

Bill Shander (07:26.818)

You do. You have to care and you have to be curious. Those are two things that go sort of hand in hand.

Bill Shander (07:41.848)

Yeah, active listening is something is a phrase people talk about. But do you really listen? know, and you know, what's interesting is like, here we are, we're having, of course, and like, you're an interviewer in this context, and you have to do that, right? And like, when I'm talking to a client, I got to be taking notes, I got to be thinking about my next question, response, or you can't avoid some some of that. But at the same time,

John Jantsch (07:49.07)

No, I'm thinking about the next question I'm going to ask.

Bill Shander (08:07.61)

What I encourage people to do is as best you can within that reality, you try to really listen. And a friend of mine just recently told me his phrase is, listen with your ears, not your brain. So really hear, and yeah, you're gonna jot notes, you're gonna notice a little trigger word, they said X, put a little circle on that, whatever, but don't start formulating your next question as much as you can avoid it until they stop. Truly listen for that whole time.

John Jantsch (08:18.766)

Mm-hmm.

Bill Shander (08:35.354)

It's really hard to do. None of us could do it perfectly, but we can strive towards that ideal.

John Jantsch (08:41.132)

I think it's a little bit cultural too. think, you know, Americans are just like, we need noise. They're like silence, you know, just kills us, right? I read a study the other day that said Americans, I think the average like silence before they become very uncomfortable is three seconds. And in Japan, it is very common for somebody to get asked a question and to literally wait for eight seconds before answering to give it thought and to give it, you know,

Bill Shander (08:50.702)

Yeah.

Bill Shander (09:04.536)

Wow.

John Jantsch (09:08.486)

emotion and I thought, you know, that's probably I mean, most people if I sat here for eight seconds of dead air, people were like, what's wrong? It's pretty interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

Bill Shander (09:16.495)

Yeah.

So I have a chapter called Silence is Golden. And not only do I talk about that, but even the chapter, the book is put on the pages in a way that each page is just one sentence with silence all around it. Because it is that important, but it is uncomfortable, it's true.

John Jantsch (09:29.42)

Yeah. Funny. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've taken I've do some public speaking and I've taken some training on that and frequently a coach or something will say no let that pause let that sit let the audience digest that boy when you're up on stage it's like can I do it. It's really hard. It's funny. So so what are the

Bill Shander (09:55.186)

It is, but yeah, good, Go ahead. No, I was j

The Fire-Breathing Dragon-Horse Sparking Wonder in a City near You | Frédette Lampre | TED

Thu, 17 Jul 2025 18:00:29 +0300

Henry Raymont, First to Report Bay of Pigs Invasion, Dies at 98

Wed, 16 Jul 2025 23:11:29 +0300

On assignment for U.P.I. in Cuba, he learned of the U.S.- backed effort to overthrow Fidel Castro and was imprisoned. He later worked for The New York Times.

He Helped Create NPR. Now He May See it Be Defunded.

Wed, 16 Jul 2025 22:50:30 +0300

Bill Siemering, 91, says potential funding cuts put a “unique, invaluable cultural resource” at risk.

Israel and Iran Usher In New Era of Psychological Warfare

Wed, 16 Jul 2025 19:25:46 +0300

The 12-day conflict was marked by a flurry of propaganda, disinformation and covert operations aided by artificial intelligence and spread by social media.

Artist Doris Mitsch uses photo stacking to cover nature in motion. #TEDTalks

Wed, 16 Jul 2025 19:01:03 +0300

SEO’s Next Era: Manick Bhan on AI, Content Strategy, and Building a Brand That Lasts

Wed, 16 Jul 2025 17:12:13 +0300

SEO’s Next Era: Manick Bhan on AI, Content Strategy, and Building a Brand That Lasts written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Manick Ban, founder and CTO of Search Atlas—a next-generation SEO and content marketing platform. Manick shares his journey from building RankPay to scaling Search Atlas, and explains why the future of SEO depends on actionable insights, platform integration, and building a brand people trust. The conversation covers the evolution of search, the impact of AI, why high-intent content matters more than ever, and how marketers can thrive in a landscape that’s constantly being disrupted.

About the Guest

Manick Bhan is the founder and CTO of Search Atlas, an advanced SEO and content marketing platform used by over 20,000 websites and 5,000 agencies. A serial entrepreneur and engineer, Manick previously founded RankPay and is widely respected as a thought leader in the SEO industry. He’s known for his innovative approach to search, actionable advice for marketers, and commitment to helping brands drive measurable growth.

- Website: searchatlas.com

YouTube: Search Atlas Channel

Actionable Insights

The future of SEO is about driving real change—not just reporting on data. Tools need to accelerate action, not just provide analytics.
AI is transforming search: Conversion rates from AI-powered search (like ChatGPT) are significantly higher than traditional search.
Marketers must focus on high-intent, core topic content that matches their business’s primary value—not just generic informational posts.
Over-diversifying topics can dilute your site’s authority and harm rankings. Clear focus and topical relevance are critical.
“Quantity” content strategies are quickly becoming obsolete; quality, brand authority, and community matter most in the new search landscape.
Rented platforms (Google, LinkedIn, YouTube) will always be a reality for marketers—so invest in building a brand people seek out directly.
In an era of information overload and AI-generated content, real-world community and peer recommendations are becoming more valuable.
Entrepreneurs should embrace failure early and often—consistent effort and learning lead to long-term success.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

01:03 – Why Search Atlas? Building Tools for Action, Not Just Analytics
Manick explains why he built Search Atlas to help marketers move beyond reporting and actually drive site changes.
03:03 – The Truth About “SEO is Dead” Headlines
Why search is evolving—not disappearing—and how user intent and platforms are shifting.
05:05 – AI’s Impact: Higher Conversion from ChatGPT
Manick shares real data on why AI-powered search users convert better and are more ready to buy.
09:12 – Winning High-Intent Searches
The power of laser-focused content strategy and why matching your core keyword matters above all else.
13:41 – The End of Web Pages? Content’s Coming Transformation
Why Manick predicts web pages as we know them could disappear, replaced by knowledge graphs and platform-generated answers.
15:30 – The Only Moat: Build a Brand They Remember
How to create recall, loyalty, and direct traffic in a world of rented digital real estate.
18:05 – The Comeback of Community
Why in-person connection and peer recommendations are more valuable than ever in an AI-driven world.
19:09 – Entrepreneurship Lessons: Fail Faster, Learn More
Manick’s advice for founders and marketers: don’t be afraid of failure, keep taking swings, and success will follow.

Pulled Quotes

“If you’re not driving action on your site, you’re just watching through the looking glass. Tools have to help you move.”
— Manick Bhan

“In a world of abundant content, your only moat is brand—people need to know you, remember you, and come back.”
— Manick Bhan

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:01.144)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is Jon Jantsch. My guest today is Manick Bhan. He is the founder, CTO of Search Atlas, a cutting edge SEO and content marketing platform designed to help marketers, agencies and businesses drive measurable growth. With a background in engineering and entrepreneurship, Manick previously founded RankPay and has become a respected thought leader in the SEO community. So Manick, welcome to the show.

Manick @ Search Atlas (00:30.847)

Thank you, John. Great to be here.

John Jantsch (00:32.686)

So let's talk a little bit about creating a search Atlas. How old is search Atlas now? Five years ish? Is that?

Manick @ Search Atlas (00:39.551)

I think the first line of code I wrote about seven years ago. Yeah.

John Jantsch (00:44.066)

Seven years ago, okay. So a lot's changed in that approach or in SEO necessarily. how did you approach or maybe even a better question, why did you think a tool needed to be built for SEO purposes? What was kind of your founding thinking of this?

Manick @ Search Atlas (01:03.187)

Yeah. Good question. with my first, my first tech company, we were in the live entertainment ticketing space. And if you don't rank on Google, you don't exist in that industry. You know, it's like the largest ticketing company is actually Google. It's not ticket master or stop hub. It's Google because you go to Google to then find those tickets. So if you're not on Google there, your business doesn't exist. So figuring out what the equation was, was something that I started trying to crack the code on, over a decade ago. And.

John Jantsch (01:13.428)

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (01:33.437)

What I learned very quickly in the process of trying to scale and grow that business is that other tools out there, conventional, what I call traditional or trad SEO tools like Ahrefs or SEMrush, these are analytics tools. They give us reports, they give us like data, but if we don't move on that data, nothing moves, right? We're just watching through the looking glass. And so I felt what we needed really as an industry was tools that would actually help us accelerate

John Jantsch (01:43.789)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (01:52.034)

Yeah, yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (02:02.259)

change, like the changes to our sites, the changes to the internet that help us rank better. And that's where Search Atlas came from.

John Jantsch (02:09.592)

So people aren't familiar with search as necessarily, you know, it basically lives on a platform, but it connects with your website. And so it actually is able to make changes on your website from that platform. That sort of took some wizardry, didn't it?

Manick @ Search Atlas (02:25.087)

It did. It started as something on back of the envelope, trying to figure out how we would do this and make it fast in real time. But we're happy that it worked. Initially, we weren't even sure if Google would be able to see the changes that we were making. So there was a lot of risk in the early days, but I believed that we would figure it out. And we did. And now I can be, I think I'm happy to say, so over 20,000 sites powered by the tech, by the software.

John Jantsch (02:26.094)

You

Manick @ Search Atlas (02:54.269)

over 5,000 agencies on the platform. And it's a case study machine. Like it just produces case studies constantly. And that's been great.

John Jantsch (03:03.918)

Yeah. So you've probably seen these headlines of late. You know, it's become very trendy to start a blog post or something with SEO is dead. let's talk a little bit. So how do you see the landscape changing right now? I mean, there's no question it is evolving and changing, but certainly not dead. How do you see it? How do you see it today?

Manick @ Search Atlas (03:15.229)

Yeah, I wonder why that is.

Manick @ Search Atlas (03:29.363)

Yeah, I think the problem is that some people's brains are dead and they see those headlines and that's what they click on. But the truth is, search is like a basic human function. We have information demands and needs that we need to get met. And there will always be a search engine to meet us in that. The form of what that takes and how it operates and whether the modality is through text or through audio or other formats, that's going to evolve and become more interesting.

But at a fundamental basis, we're essentially providing a fragment of information, looking for knowledge. And that discovery process is just evolved. The landscape is now more fragmented than it used to be. The total size of search is actually bigger. And it's still Google's game, but the types and ways that we're searching are changing. And the kinds of people that search on different search platforms is also

John Jantsch (04:15.587)

Yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (04:27.743)

becoming pretty interesting. What we're seeing in our data.

John Jantsch (04:29.826)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's almost like there's almost like search personality, right? Almost.

Manick @ Search Atlas (04:36.743)

Yeah, I mean, on the end, on the other end of the computer, there's an avatar, there's an ICP. And the ICP of the chat GPT user is someone who's willing to pay at least 20 bucks a month. Remember that, like we're paying for the subscription. Anyone can search on Google without even a dollar. It's a free platform. And so immediately there's a higher commercial possibility from the user of chat. That's why I guess when we look at our data, we're seeing

John Jantsch (04:38.062)

Yeah, yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (05:05.278)

5.5 times higher conversion rate from people that go to our site from chat GPT than from Google, which was insane. And then even for some of our product pages, we see, you know, 1.5 to 4X higher conversion rate. So it's undeniable that the conversion likelihood is way higher from chat than it is from Google. And that's what we're seeing.

John Jantsch (05:27.384)

Yeah, and I think it makes a ton of sense because at least today, the snapshot in the moment, I think that the consumer's belief is, chat, GPT or AI or something has gone out there and done all the research for me. And so these three results that it gave me, you that's all I need to look at. And I think that's really why you're seeing that. Don't you think that's why that intent and that conversion is so high?

Manick @ Search Atlas (05:49.843)

Yeah, for sure. And the other thing that happens faster on LLMs is that you're able to do your research in a more comprehensive way. So there's other prompts they're asking. They're asking refinements and they're digging in deeper. They're going and they're asking more questions. And then when they get to the final end of their journey, usually they're in a pretty close position, I think, to make the transaction happen and they're ready.

John Jantsch (06:16.022)

Yeah. Yeah. was a lot of those questions they used to ask a salesperson have now been answered. Yeah. Yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (06:21.693)

Yeah, exactly. Way less objections and they're way more familiar with what they're buying. And from an information processing perspective, John, like that's the other amazing thing about it is it's way easier for us to interact with ChatGPT because we know the structure. It's text and it's structured in a way and it's easy to synthesize that.

John Jantsch (06:37.858)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:44.238)

Yeah, yeah, it's a conversation. Feels like a conversation, right? So, how, where do you, what do you see the biggest opportunities and maybe the biggest risks today for marketers with AI becoming, you know, so integrated into search strategies?

Manick @ Search Atlas (07:00.447)

Yeah, that's an interesting one. I think one of the biggest risks is

Manick @ Search Atlas (07:09.297)

One of the biggest risks is how the platforms themselves are changing. And if you're like, as an example, if you're a pure play organic search marketer that was good at creating content and you were creating a lot of informational content, that strategy is becoming more and more obsolete because the truth is Google and all the LMS, they already know what color an Apple is and they know that the sky's blue. Like we don't have to like create content to show that to them.

John Jantsch (07:29.027)

Yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (07:38.143)

We have to create something new and different. And so some people that haven't evolved their marketing approach in organic SEO, that methodology is already obsolete and they need to retrain. So I think that's a risk is obsolescence. If you're watching podcasts like this and reading up and actually applying the knowledge, well, you're using an obsolete blueprint that's living in, hopefully not Windows 95, but an out-of-date era.

John Jantsch (07:44.408)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (08:07.064)

Yeah, yeah,

Manick @ Search Atlas (08:07.439)

So that's a risk. Yeah. And the platforms themselves are changing a lot. like what used to work two years ago on Facebook, for example, like I remember buying mobile app installs from, for my first tech company for less than a dollar by scraping the Facebook user IDs and running custom audiences. They closed that loophole. So just how the platforms work, their opportunities, that also changes. And it's changing faster with AI now than it was before.

John Jantsch (08:36.142)

So you described a lot of that how-to content. The theory was very top of the funnel, get people to my website, that kind of thing. The common advice that I'm hearing a lot and a lot of folks are giving right now is that our content strategy needs to be more around winning high intent searches, which I think people would say we've always wanted to do, right? But that person that's out there searching for best person to do X is a

is a better searcher, but how do we optimize our content for that type of probably more competitive search?

Manick @ Search Atlas (09:12.595)

Yeah. So it's, so it starts with really understanding your, like the central topic or the primary keyword of your business and being really laser clear about that. So for example, for search Atlas, some people would say it's SEO. No, it's actually not SEO. It's if it's SEO, then it's SEO automation and not just SEO automation, SEO automation software. Right. Or maybe it's marketing automation software.

John Jantsch (09:19.128)

Yep.

John Jantsch (09:34.551)

Mm-hmm.

Manick @ Search Atlas (09:41.279)

problem becomes first off when people begin the process from the wrong starting point and they don't really understand what is what's called like their primary keyword or their central searching town. So that's the first thing. what I, we do, because we also have an agency and we take on a lot of projects from people that have worked with other agencies that did the content process wrong. And they didn't understand what it was that this business was actually selling and they created as an example.

John Jantsch (10:04.781)

Nice.

Manick @ Search Atlas (10:10.463)

for a cardiologist in LA, an article about did Donald Trump have a heart attack? Well, I get the concept of a heart attack and Donald, that's somehow related to cardiology, but that has nothing to do with cardiology in Los Angeles or the service or the practice of it. And so when people take that path and they don't do the right content strategy, they confuse Google about what the site is actually about. And that is the part that is devastating when they...

John Jantsch (10:24.451)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:35.629)

Yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (10:39.281)

increase the site's focus score, which is a metric Google is quantifying, when they reduce its focus score, when they increase its radius, when the site gets topical r

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The Website Is No Longer the Marketing Hub: How AI Is Reshaping Customer Journeys

Mon, 14 Jul 2025 17:07:02 +0300

The Website Is No Longer the Marketing Hub: How AI Is Reshaping Customer Journeys written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Marketing has shifted. Your website is no longer the central hub of your customer’s journey. AI-powered assistants, chatbots, and large language models are now curating content and guiding buyer behavior in ways your site never touches. If you’re not structuring content for AI visibility or building assets that live beyond your domain, you’re falling behind. This post breaks down what this shift means and what practical actions marketers should take right now.

1. Introduction: The Shift from Web-Centric to AI-Centric Marketing
2. Why AI Is the New Gatekeeper
3. How Prompt-Ready Content Replaces Traditional SEO
4. Building AI-Native Marketing Assets
5. Rethinking Marketing as an Ecosystem
6. Actionable Questions for Future-Proofing Your Strategy
7. Conclusion: Marketing That Moves With the Customer

1. Introduction: The Shift from Web-Centric to AI-Centric Marketing

For decades, websites were the command center of marketing. You drove traffic to them, optimized for conversions, and measured success based on visits, bounce rates, and leads captured on-site.

But that model is breaking. Today’s customers are interacting with AI interfaces—Google’s AI Overviews, ChatGPT, Claude, voice assistants, and vertical AI tools—before they ever see your website. These systems are shaping perceptions, curating recommendations, and often resolving intent before a click occurs.

Callout: If your strategy still treats your website as the main entry point, you’re missing where the real journey begins.

2. Why AI Is the New Gatekeeper

Google isn’t your homepage anymore. Neither is your website. AI models now mediate access to information. This means content gets repackaged, summarized, and referenced outside your domain.

What This Means:

AI tools curate your content whether or not users visit your site
Keyword strategies aren’t enough without structured, scannable content

What You Should Do:

Use headers, bullets, and short sections for readability
Implement schema markup and semantic HTML
Feed your content to GPTs, Perplexity, and Bing

3. How Prompt-Ready Content Replaces Traditional SEO

Search engines used to reward keywords. AI rewards clarity and completeness. It extracts direct answers from content that is structured like a conversation.

What You Should Do:

Write content in a clear Q&A format
Use summary blocks and concise explanations
Test with ChatGPT or Claude to see how your content is interpreted

Callout: If AI can’t easily summarize your message, your audience won’t see it.

4. Building AI-Native Marketing Assets

Your static PDFs and polished landing pages aren’t dead—but they’re no longer enough. AI-native tools are interactive and value-delivering in real time.

Ideas to Explore:

Create AI-guided chat flows using tools like ManyChat or Intercom
Build a branded GPT that reflects your voice and systems
Package useful prompts for your audience to use in their own AI queries

5. Rethinking Marketing as an Ecosystem

Your brand must exist across feeds, formats, and AI interfaces—not just your website. Visibility now means playing in multiple ecosystems.

How to Operate:

Repurpose content across LinkedIn, YouTube Shorts, email, and GPT inputs
Use modular content: quotes, cards, stats, highlights
Create embedded tools—calculators, diagnostics, or interactive guides

Callout: Don’t optimize just for clicks—optimize for where your audience already lives.

6. Actionable Questions for Future-Proofing Your Strategy

Before you publish content, ask yourself:

Can this be summarized by AI in under 60 words?
Would an AI recommend this in a relevant answer?
Does it exist in multiple ecosystems?
Is it structured to be referenceable by AI, not just linkable?

7. Conclusion: Marketing That Moves With the Customer

Marketing is no longer web-first. It’s AI-first. This is not the death of the website—but it is the decentralization of your marketing strategy. Your content needs to live and perform across multiple digital touchpoints, including those controlled by AI systems.

The Duct Tape Marketing approach remains the same: simplify, systemize, and stay customer-centric. But now, you must expand your playbook to meet your audience where they’re engaging—on AI platforms, in chat tools, and through curated content experiences.

Need help rethinking how your content performs in this new AI-powered landscape? Let’s talk.

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Outgrow Your Competition: The Proactive Sales System with Alex Goldfayn

Thu, 10 Jul 2025 19:21:48 +0300

Outgrow Your Competition: The Proactive Sales System with Alex Goldfayn written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Episode Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Alex Goldfayn, bestselling author and CEO of the Revenue Growth Consultancy. They dive into his new book, Outgrow: How to Expand Market Share and Outsell Your Competition, discussing why proactive outreach is the key to consistent sales growth—especially in a challenging economy. Learn how simple habits, the right mindset, and strategic action can help you stand out, take market share, and build a sustainable sales culture.

About the Guest

Alex Goldfayn is a three-time Wall Street Journal bestselling author and a globally recognized sales consultant. He runs the Revenue Growth Consultancy, helping B2B organizations increase annual sales by 15–30% through proven, proactive systems.

Website: runoutgrow.com
LinkedIn: Alex Goldfayn

Key Takeaways

95% of salespeople are reactive—proactive outreach is the differentiator.
The main blocker isn’t laziness, but fear of rejection.
The COPE mindset (Confidence, Optimism, Positivity, Enthusiasm) is foundational.
Track sales actions, not just results—“swing the bat.”
“Did You Know?” questions convert at 20% and drive line-item growth.
Everyone who faces customers contributes to sales.
Storytelling and recognition drive cultural change more than incentives.
Systems and repetition make growth habits stick.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

00:52 – The 95% reactive trap and how to break free
03:40 – Proactivity in tough economic climates
05:02 – Salespeople’s fear of rejection explained
08:04 – The power of the COPE mindset
12:20 – Tracking “swings” over “hits” in sales
14:23 – Using “Did You Know?” questions to add revenue
17:28 – Non-sales teams as a proactive sales force
19:25 – From sales training to sales action
22:28 – Recognition and storytelling as culture drivers

Pulled Quotes

“You cannot react your way to market share growth. The only way to grow is to take it—and that requires proactivity.” – Alex Goldfayn

“People just want to be helped. Not once has a customer ever said, ‘I’d rather you not make my life easier today.’” – Alex Goldfayn

“Behavior follows thinking. We can’t outsell our mindset.” – Alex Goldfayn

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:01.006)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Chance. My guest today is Alex Goldfein. He's a three-time Wall Street Journal bestselling author, one of the most sought after sales speakers in the world. He's the CEO of the Revenue Growth Consultancy, one of the top grossing solo consulting firms in America, generating 7.5 million annually. His clients, primarily B2B organizations, implement simple, proactive actions that drive 15 to 30 % sales growth.

every year and we're gonna talk about his latest book out grow how to expand market share and outsell your competition. So welcome to show Alex.

Alex Goldfayn (00:39.721)

Hi John, thank you sir. Thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (00:42.06)

I want to unpack one of the core themes of the book. You talk about transforming reactive companies into proactive ones. Tell me little bit about that thinking.

Alex Goldfayn (00:52.91)

Well, I think, you know, over 415 clients over about 22 years that I've done these outgrow revenue growth initiatives with, what I've realized is about 95 % of all companies and also 95 % of all salespeople are generally reactive, meaning we take what's in coming. and when you take what's in coming and most companies that have been around.

some history are very good at this, like world class, right? When I arrive at an organization, usually they are world class at this reactive work, which is basically customer service work. Well, the only way to really grow in terms of volume growth, not inflationary growth, not acquisitive growth, but organic volume sales growth, the only way to do that is we have to take market share.

We have to, uh, take business from another company that already has the business. And the only way to compete for and take market share is to be pro active. You cannot react your way to market share growth. You can't do it. You're just, when you're reactive, you're just, you know, a rising tide lifts all ships, sinking tide sinks all ships. Uh, and you're just moving with the current. You go where the economy takes you.

And that is 95 % of all companies and 95 % of all salespeople. And that's actually good news because it means that it's really easy to stand out in that crowd. It's really easy to do better. And as a result, it's really, really easy, John, to grow.

John Jantsch (02:45.806)

Yeah, and you know, in this particular moment in time, starting the third quarter of 2025, as we record this, I'm seeing a lot of companies that it's even worse because they're not even even if they're unhappy right now, they're like not reaching out because there's a lot of uncertainty. And it's like, I'm just gonna stay put. So I mean, I would suggest that your proactive is probably even more necessary because there's probably less incoming right now.

Alex Goldfayn (03:11.62)

Not only is it more necessary, it works better now because of exactly what you said, because literally nobody's reaching out now. So outgrow proactivity works really, really well in good economies because people have money to spend and we can go to them and say, hey, what are you spending your money on? May I help you with that? I'd love an opportunity to help. But in a bad economy, John, because of exactly what you said, people sit around and your competition is like, I'm not gonna call them.

John Jantsch (03:15.202)

Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (03:40.506)

now, especially now, I'm not going to pitch them, you know, for more products or more services now in this economy. I'm telling you, when you call a customer and say, I was thinking about you, how's your family? What are you working on that I can help you with? Or perhaps what are you doing with my competition that I can help you with? And this is somebody, you know, does somebody have a nice relationship with? when you call somebody like that, John, you're the only one in that person's life.

John Jantsch (03:59.16)

Thank

John Jantsch (04:03.0)

Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (04:09.943)

doing that. Nobody else is doing it, especially now. So talk about standing out from the crowd and how easy it is. Just show up because nobody is.

John Jantsch (04:20.974)

I think I know the answer to this, but tell me a little bit about the term outgrow. What are you trying to project with that?

Alex Goldfayn (04:29.292)

Yeah, well, we want to outgrow the market. We want to outgrow the competition. We want to outgrow the average. We want to outgrow the company's own history year to year, you know, in terms of growth. And again, the way to do that is through taking market share. And the way to take market share is to be proactive.

John Jantsch (04:50.484)

So looking a little bit back to one of your very first things as saying that, 90 % of the folks just wait around. I mean, is that another way of saying that 90 % of salespeople are lazy?

Alex Goldfayn (05:02.198)

No, it's another way of saying that 90 or 95 % of salespeople have tremendous discomfort and fear with communicating with customers and prospects when nothing is wrong, which is my definition of proactivity. If somebody says, what do you mean by proactive? I mean, when nothing is wrong, when the price isn't going up, which is when salespeople call, when you need the payment, which is when customers hear from salespeople.

John Jantsch (05:20.225)

Yes.

Alex Goldfayn (05:31.258)

When you can't get them the order on time, which is when customers hear from salespeople, right? People only hear from people when something rises to the level of urgency to make the call. And so this communication, this proactive communication is when nothing is wrong. So that's my definition of productivity. And it's not laziness. It's intense and severe discomfort with bothering the customer, annoying the customer, taking their time and probably hovering above all of that, even higher.

is discomfort and fear of rejection. Fear of rejection. If I call them about this other offering, they might tell me no into my ear hole. And that's an intense personal rejection, right? And that's what we're trying to avoid. We humans, and you and I are too, we will do anything possible to avoid that kind of rejection.

including going out and asking for the business.

John Jantsch (06:32.428)

Yeah. You know, back, back when I was just getting started, I had a routine on, Fridays. I would just pick up the phone and call five people. I was not trying to sell anything. I was not trying to do anything. And I can't tell you, I used to laugh. In I wrote a big blog post about this, that about half the time one or two of those phone calls, would, would start with, I was just meaning to call you. And it was like, okay.

Alex Goldfayn (06:57.027)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:00.162)

Get out my order pad. It was amazing.

Alex Goldfayn (07:02.201)

That's it. That's it. When you show up when nothing is wrong, you are saving the customer from having to think about it again. Whatever is in their head, whatever the need might be. If you don't call them like you just shared, they're going to have to think about it more, probably repeatedly, because once usually doesn't do it. You don't think about something and then do it typically. You think about something many times and then you might do it, but you might not. And it's incredibly valuable.

John Jantsch (07:06.35)

Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (07:30.819)

to do what you just described. And that's why my clients, and I've had tens of thousands of salespeople go through this and run these processes that we're talking about. We constantly hear from people, why will I have you? Or I'm so glad you called, can you please check on this for me? Product, service, whatever it is.

John Jantsch (07:52.227)

Yeah. Yeah. So would you say that this is just a, like, this is a habit, this is a system or is it cultural in an organization or is it all the above? Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (08:04.407)

Yeah, you need both. So I say that outgrow is two thirds mindset work because, you know, behavior always follows thinking and we can't outsell our mindset. So if we think we're bothering the customer, we're going to sell accordingly. But if we think it's our obligation to help the customer and they want our help because they're better off with us than with the competition who isn't as good as us, then we sell that way. We sell as though

John Jantsch (08:20.792)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (08:32.289)

we have a lot more value for the customer. So it's two thirds mindset work. In Outgrow, we have an acronym called COPE, John, COPE, confidence, optimism, positivity, and enthusiasm. And we need those mindsets because we have to bring them to the salespeople that we work with. We have to bring them to the organization. So culturally, in Outgrow organization that runs Outgrow,

becomes more cope, becomes more confident, more optimistic, more positive, more enthusiastic. And when you are those things, it's much easier to make proactive calls, to offer additional products, to follow up on quotes and proposals, and to ask people what else.

John Jantsch (09:17.55)

How, how ready does this, does a person using this system need to be for, if I start with a call with, just want to see if there's anything I could help you with. I sell widgets, but the guy tells me, you know what, we just fired our accounting firm. We're really screwed. How prepared do I have to be to say, you know what, I think I can help you with somebody, you know, unrelated to me, I'm not going to make any money off of this, but I think I can help you. mean, how prepared or, or, or how much of your system do you think?

relies on just being the person who solves problems.

Alex Goldfayn (09:50.988)

think people just want to help people. And I also think our starting position is people just want to be helped. You're calling your customers, your prospects. People just want to be helped. That's starting point number one. Then when we are showing up, we are simply offering to help people, which is what they want. John?

Over a hundred million outgrow actions, log, tracked and analyzed over 23 years by over 400 clients. So we log our activities and then we see the, you know, with the responses, the results, the outcomes. Um, not one time, not once has any customer ever said, I'd rather you not make my life easier today. Has it happened once people just want to be helped. if you're calling to sell a product and somebody has a need that you don't provide.

Well, then try to help them. Common sense, you know, human relationship stuff. in fact, I would argue that already happens. You know, if you're watching this right now, how many times does one of your customers ask you for something that you don't offer them? And you went and found a way to get it for them. Maybe you connected them to your competition. Even maybe you went to your competition and got what they needed for them. That happens all the time. And when you do that, the customer remembers it.

forever.

John Jantsch (11:17.774)

Well, and, and, know, once you've, I've, I've seen this all the time. Once I've, once I've got that trust, um, you know, I want to keep it. Um, and I keep it by just not, not allowing them to call anybody else, right. I'm the only one that they would call regardless of what their problem is. And, and either it takes a little extra work sometimes, you know, your stuff, you're not going to get paid for directly, but, um, as you've seen in, your research, uh, pays off time and time again, speaking of, uh, research.

how would a company set up?

measuring this, you know, because you might make 10 of those calls and nothing really happens today. you know, so now the sales person's like, you know, that's, that's not really paying off. you know, is there a way to measure you talk about them actions? think, I think that's what you called them. you know, you know, these actions, is there a way to then turn them into a system of KPIs so to speak that, that, you know, that doubt do kind of motivate people to say, this works.

Alex Goldfayn (12:08.0)

Yeah, yeah, outgrow actions. Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (12:15.754)

Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (12:20.342)

Yeah, so in the book, there are scorecards and metrics that we use all over at examples. And I don't know if you can see our video right now. You can see a couple of baseball bats behind me and we call it swinging the bat. So we don't track the hits and outgrow. We track the swings because we know what the batting averages are. So we are simply asking outgrow participants who we call out growers.

John Jantsch (12:23.746)

Yes.

Alex Goldfayn (12:48.854)

We are asking this. These are people who face customers for you. We're asking them to try to take our act to take our actions because we know, you know, in baseball you can hit the ball exactly right, dead on, and it flies right out of the fender and it's an out. And sales is the same way. You can do everything right and hit the ball perfectly. And then, you know, getting the win is largely out of our control. You can't really control if the customer is in a good mood.

You can't really control

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AI, Analytics & Content Strategy: Andy Crestodina on the Future of Digital Marketing

Wed, 02 Jul 2025 22:27:10 +0300

AI, Analytics & Content Strategy: Andy Crestodina on the Future of Digital Marketing written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch welcomes Andy Crestodina, co-founder and CMO of Orbit Media Studios, to explore the rapidly changing world of digital marketing. Andy shares practical insights on using AI for content strategy, analytics, and website optimization—while emphasizing the enduring importance of quality, relationships, and human creativity. The discussion covers everything from AI-powered audience simulations to the evolving role of SEO, and how marketers can cut through the noise to focus on what really matters.

About the Guest

Andy Crestodina is the co-founder and chief marketing officer of Orbit Media Studios, a top-rated digital agency in Chicago. A recognized authority on content strategy, SEO, and web analytics, Andy is celebrated for his ability to make complex marketing topics accessible and actionable. He’s the author of “Content Chemistry,” a sought-after speaker, and a regular contributor to leading marketing publications. Andy’s hands-on approach and innovative thinking have made him a trusted guide for marketers navigating digital transformation.

Website: orbitmedia.com
LinkedIn: Andy Crestodina

Actionable Insights

The future of marketing will involve testing content and strategies with AI-generated audience personas before launching to the real market.
AI’s biggest long-term value is improving quality and performance, not just efficiency or cost-savings.
Human relationships, creativity, and high-touch service will always set great brands apart from “good enough” automation.
Content that stands out will be driven by strong points of view, original research, collaboration, and highly visual formats.
The SEO landscape is shifting: informational content will see less traffic from search, while commercial intent and “visit website” keywords remain essential.
LinkedIn newsletters and platform-native content are quickly outpacing traditional SEO for B2B visibility.
Marketers should use analytics for actionable insights—such as CTA performance, video engagement, and conversion rates—rather than generic dashboards or reporting.
AI can help uncover hidden data trends and quickly transform insights into new campaign ideas, but quality still requires human oversight and creativity.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

01:10 – AI Personas and the Future of Marketing
Andy predicts marketers will soon use AI-generated “synthetic audiences” to test ideas before launch.
03:30 – Focus on Quality, Not Just Efficiency
Why the real opportunity is in improving performance, not just saving time.
05:48 – The Limits of AI in Design
Where automation can help creative teams—and where pixel-perfect service still matters.
09:39 – Content Creation: AI vs. Originality
The danger of “good enough” content and why strong opinions and research win.
11:21 – SEO’s Shifting Role
How commercial-intent keywords and platform-native content are now the best route to visibility.
15:40 – Analytics That Matter
Andy’s favorite ways to use GA4 and AI for real business insights, not just reports.
21:06 – The Coming Age of Automated Client Interactions
Imagining a near future where AI agents help qualify leads, prep sales teams, and remove friction where clients want it.

Pulled Quotes

“AI’s real value isn’t just efficiency. It’s about pushing performance and improving quality.”
— Andy Crestodina

“Content strategy is about to have a great moment—as the tide goes out, strong opinions, research, and collaboration will stand out even more.”
— Andy Crestodina

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:01.346)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Andy Crestodina. He's a recognized authority in digital marketing, co-founder and chief marketing officer of Orbit Media Studios and an influential voice on content strategy, SEO and website optimization. With two decades of hands-on experience, Andy is known for breaking down complex marketing tactics into practical, actionable steps, my kind of guy.

He's a sought after speaker and the author of content chemistry and a regular contributor to leading industry publications. So Andy, welcome to the show.

Andy Crestodina (00:38.136)

Thanks for having me, John. Glad to be here.

John Jantsch (00:39.438)

We have known each other about each other, whatever the definition is for many years. and I just discovered this the first time you've been on my show. So why don't you come back like weekly now.

Andy Crestodina (00:45.259)

Mm-hmm.

Andy Crestodina (00:51.896)

I would never say no. I'd hang out with you all day, John, if I could.

John Jantsch (00:56.469)

So let's, let's jump into AI. mean, what the heck? What are we 41 seconds in? Where do you see it making the biggest real world impact for marketers today? I know that's a pretty big question.

Andy Crestodina (01:02.583)

Mm-hmm.

Andy Crestodina (01:10.924)

No, I think about it a lot. I think that probably the future of marketing is lowering risk and cost by building synthetic members of a target audience and then testing content, pages, calls to action strategies with that AI persona. So, Sims, like running little, making a thing and getting feedback on it before you put it in the market, because I think it's likely, it seems to me that we'll look back at this era and say,

Wow, super primitive. You used to just make a thing and make it live and hope for the best and check it later. Probably not in the future. We'll do it in a bit more sophisticated way.

John Jantsch (01:50.894)

That's really interesting. You know, I hadn't really thought about that, that idea, because I think so many people are focused on automations and efficiencies and getting rid of people, you know, even. But, I mean, you're obviously, I mean, I, I'm really of the camp that it's going to change some things around in terms of people, but I think it also is, you know, they're already seeing it creating some demand in some areas for people.

Andy Crestodina (02:03.186)

No. Yeah.

John Jantsch (02:18.946)

that didn't exist before. is the concern that, was it Sam Altman that said like 95 % of marketing or white collar jobs will be gone in five years?

Andy Crestodina (02:25.953)

Yeah.

You

Andy Crestodina (02:33.066)

Yeah, I think there's, I'm going to stay out of the prediction game and wondering, but, I'll tell you what I'm here for and have been from the beginning and you too, it's, don't, I don't wake up in the morning hoping to save 10 minutes or half an hour. I want to do great work. I want to see the performance of that work. I want to know that I'm, that I'm doing quality work. I want to see the, the feedback and the performance of everything in the data.

So really everything I've ever done with AI, and this is hundreds of experiments, half by day on Saturday was building a custom GPT and testing it. But everything that I've done is really just been about trying to improve quality. And if it turns out to be faster, that's lovely. But what we're all trying to do is to drive an outcome. So I think a lot of marketers are overemphasizing efficiency and speed.

John Jantsch (03:09.026)

Yeah.

Andy Crestodina (03:30.641)

and missing big opportunities to use it to push performance.

John Jantsch (03:36.002)

Yeah. one of the, ironically, one of the, think one of the enemies of quality is that we got so much on our plate, right? And I think that even quality relationships, I mean, I'm finding that if there's a lot of stuff that had to be done, but let's face it, it was grunt work, you know, that had to be done. And I do think that some people are feeling like, Hey, if I get that off my plate, it kind of frees my head up. And, know, even like I say, for, for more relationship building and

I think that's where quality is gonna come from, isn't it?

Andy Crestodina (04:06.762)

Absolutely. So it will give you a free hand to work harder on those, you know, the conversations you're having, prioritizing offline experiences, being part of communities, you know, just taking care of the people around you. But the one thing that I've been doing with a lot, and this was my very last call, talking to a client.

looking for opportunities to make these pages better, stronger, faster, more detailed and comprehensive. It's for a higher ed program. And we just gave Chad to PT the persona and gave it the page and said, we're looking to make this a more comprehensive page. Give us ideas. The very first idea was fantastic. It's like, which program is right for you. What? Wait, how? And the meeting sort of paused. Like everyone kind of held their breath for a second and asked, like, did we not?

do that? Wait, we didn't do that. Why didn't we do that? And there were several others, like three or four things. Yeah, so AI-powered gap analysis is one of my favorite things, but they're always best discovered through relationships and real-world human conversation.

John Jantsch (05:10.221)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:17.304)

So a lot of orbit media's work is or has been designed or at least design was an element of it. How do you feel about the design creative process right now? I think there's a lot of people trying to create tools that can automate a lot of things in that space. Where do you, do you, do you feel like, mean, there's, there's some really awful stuff coming out through that. mean, how do you feel about that space right now, where it is today and where you see it going?

Andy Crestodina (05:23.522)

Mm-hmm.

Andy Crestodina (05:40.792)

Yeah.

Andy Crestodina (05:48.226)

Well, design for interactive is a kind of a turning point happening now because these tools like Figma, where you're designing it somehow in a context where it's already responsive and the front end programming for things that web teams are building is sort of half done. Now, kind of like writing or image generation, the code generated by AI still requires a lot of review. No one's just grabbing it and assuming it's all

perfect, it's not. So there's a big gain there in the handoff between designers and programmers, but not, you know, there's still plenty of work to do. The other one I think is in design. What do you hire? What do you get when you hire a web company? Partly you want service, you want someone to listen to you, you want accountability, you want a thought partner and you want pixel perfection. I don't think AI is there. don't think that if you, brands big and small.

want to work with designers to get the thing to look just like they want it to look. The state of AI for UX, it all feels like these long shot prompts. It's just like, hope something good comes back and you can't really ask it to fine tune. It's just creating another one each time. don't know. So design for simple things, design direction, great, but not for pixel perfection.

John Jantsch (07:19.054)

I'm going to question how much of the market actually wants or understands pixel perfection. mean, aren't there isn't there a significant amount of the market that's like, that's good enough.

Andy Crestodina (07:29.836)

I'm sure there is. It's not mostly our audience. I had a 40 minute call with a client about how this circle, the brand is everything. And the edge of the circle needs to be a little bit closer to the edge of the box on both mobile and desktop. There are still lots of people who want their fingerprints on their design. I understand that. I don't think that.

John Jantsch (07:30.894)

Yeah.

Andy Crestodina (07:56.094)

Visitors care that much about the number of pixels between the circle and the edge of the box but so yeah, if you're looking for good enough or a great start or here's the You know a giant step in the in a good direction. It's awesome but but people really do like service and there's a Special thing that happens like you said about relationships, you know when creative teams work together to solve problems with clients and and leaders

John Jantsch (08:26.348)

Yeah, I I personally, again, I wouldn't put myself out there as being on the front line of image creation or whatnot with some of the tools, but some of the stuff I've done with it, I mean, every now and then it's like, yeah, that's okay. And then every now and then it's just like, that's like, that person has no face. How can I use that?

Andy Crestodina (08:43.96)

It's changing fast. It's changing fast. Image generation. I sort of wish I could go back and I would have put in the same prompt every month just to sort of see the evolution of it because it's improving quickly. But yeah, don't look too closely at hands. Text is still a problem. It's getting much, much better. But halfway through here at 2025, there are long shot prompts, let's be honest.

John Jantsch (09:00.696)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (09:11.618)

Yeah. Yeah. So speaking of maybe that's good enough, let's talk about content creation. I think a lot of people, that was probably the first use case for many people is, look, this can write this blog post for me. I think a lot of people are starting to find out that that's just not going to cut it. In fact, there, you know, I won't go as far as saying the old Google penalty thing, but I think that they're being penalized in the eyes of everything that's reading the content today.

Andy Crestodina (09:39.762)

Yeah, I don't see a reason to write an article, to publish an article if AI can create it because your target audience can write that same prompt and get that same article. That's in fact the last thing you should publish. So for the duct tape marketing audience and fans of yours and people who read my stuff, I think it should be obvious that the difference between AI generated, just garbage and

John Jantsch (09:45.356)

Yeah.

Andy Crestodina (10:05.72)

quickly made stuff in medium quality or the boring taste like water articles. And strong points of view, original research, deep content, like taking a stand, collaborative formats like we're doing now. This stuff is going to be even more different in the future. I think that content strategy is going to have a great moment here as the tide goes out and all these marketers just look like it becomes really clear.

No one's ever going to read that again. Whoever's byline that was just lost reputation. So yeah, strong opinion, original research, collaborative formats, highly visual content. These will feel more different than ever. So it's like influencers and video. These things will be, I think, more effective in the future than even they are today.

John Jantsch (11:00.76)

So as I listen to describe that, you know, the old game used to be, I mean, content and SEO or search visibility, certainly we're very married together. And as I listen to you describe that, mean, it really, I mean, is keyword ranking just not really a thing anymore? It's not important anymore?

Andy Crestodina (11:21.353)

Thank you for asking that. I'm seeing so much about this and I'm really excited to give this answer. Everyone needs to separate in their minds these two types of key phrases. People looking for answers are looking for articles. AI overviews will kind of give that person the answer. Click through rates to content marketing for search optimized articles will decline forever. It has been for five years anyway. commercial intent key phrases, what the buyer searches for.

Visit website intent key phrases. There's still tons of them. Separate in your analytics blog posts from your sales pages and then check the changes to traffic and then check the changes to rankings and click through rates and engagement because people who are making big decisions want to look at a website. They're going to click through it no matter what Google puts in their way.

John Jantsch (12:10.06)

Yeah, I think one of the pieces of that puzzle is that they're still getting, in many cases, even th

Bold Moves for Future-Ready Marketing: What to Stop Doing Immediately

Tue, 01 Jul 2025 23:09:59 +0300

Bold Moves for Future-Ready Marketing: What to Stop Doing Immediately written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

TL;DR

The future of marketing belongs to those who have the courage to stop outdated practices. Cut excessive and generic content, ignore vanity metrics, prioritize authenticity, build trust, let go of comfort zones, use technology wisely, adapt for AI, and focus on community over funnels. Letting go of what’s holding you back creates space for smarter, more impactful marketing.

1. Stop Blasting Audiences with Excess Content and Ads

Why It Matters

The “more is better” approach to content and ads has reached its limit. Consumers are tired of being overwhelmed and are unsubscribing or switching brands to escape the noise. Smart audiences now ignore generic blasts, and most actually want fewer, more relevant communications.

What to Do Instead

Review your content calendar and remove low-engagement posts or emails.
Focus on quality over quantity by sending fewer, more meaningful messages.
Invest more time in understanding what your audience truly values.
Use AI for insights, but always add a personal, human perspective.
Run a test by reducing frequency for a month and monitoring engagement rates.

Takeaway: The goal is not constant presence, but memorable impact. Strategize your outreach so every message matters.

2. Stop Obsessing Over Vanity Metrics and Empty Reach

Why It Matters

Chasing numbers like followers, likes, and impressions can feel good but these metrics rarely translate into real business growth. Most digital ads are quickly scrolled past, and fair-weather followers almost never become loyal customers.

What to Do Instead

Identify metrics that drive real results such as repeat visits, shares, purchases, or referrals.
Adjust your reporting and team incentives to focus on engagement, not just exposure.
Use analytics to track meaningful actions, like comments or direct replies.
Encourage content that sparks genuine conversation or feedback.

Takeaway: Switch your focus from empty reach to true connection. Measure what matters to your business, not your ego.

3. Stop Being Generic—Prioritize Authenticity

Why It Matters

Modern consumers quickly spot canned visuals, recycled taglines, and generic brand messaging. In a world where AI can generate anything, authenticity is your sharpest edge.

What to Do Instead

Replace clichés and stock images with real stories, faces, and voices from your brand.
Share behind-the-scenes moments or honest lessons learned.
Don’t be afraid to use humor, opinion, or a unique point of view.
Let AI support your research, but ensure every message feels uniquely yours.

Takeaway: The boldest brands are the most authentic. Make sure your marketing sounds and feels like you—not anyone else.

4. Stop Neglecting Consumer Trust and Privacy

Why It Matters

Trust is more valuable than ever. Poor data practices, endless retargeting, and impersonal messaging push people away. When trust is lost, it is rarely regained.

What to Do Instead

Be clear and transparent about what data you collect and why.
Give customers control over their information and respect their preferences.
Review your data collection for compliance and necessity.
Respond to feedback and reviews, including the negative ones.

Takeaway: Treat every customer like a person, not a datapoint. Make privacy and transparency a core part of your brand promise.

5. Stop Clinging to Comfort Zones and Old Formulas

Why It Matters

If your marketing feels too comfortable, it’s probably not working as well as it could. Sticking with what used to work can leave you behind as the landscape changes.

What to Do Instead

Review your marketing channels and tactics to see which ones are actually delivering results.
Retire campaigns that feel safe but stale.
Encourage your team to brainstorm and pilot new ideas.
Make it a habit to learn from both successes and failures.

Takeaway: Letting go of the old is the first step towards finding new, more effective approaches.

6. Stop Treating Technology as a Magic Bullet

Why It Matters

No tool or AI feature can make up for a weak strategy. Chasing every new tech trend won’t deliver lasting results.

What to Do Instead

Focus first on understanding your customer and crafting a meaningful offer.
Use technology to enhance your strengths, not to mask your weaknesses.
Regularly assess which tools deliver real value and which are just distractions.
Remember, sometimes a personal touch outperforms any automation.

Takeaway: Technology should serve your strategy, not the other way around.

7. Stop Underestimating the AI Revolution—Adapt Instead of Ignore

Why It Matters

AI is changing everything from search to customer engagement. Ignoring these changes, or automating without oversight, can put you at a disadvantage.

What to Do Instead

Identify repetitive tasks that AI can handle and redirect your energy to creativity and relationships.
Train your team in AI basics and encourage experimentation.
Always keep a human eye on automated outputs for quality and tone.
Stay curious and proactive about how AI is changing your customer’s world.

Takeaway: Embrace AI as a partner, not a threat. Balance efficiency with a human touch.

8. Stop Prioritizing Funnels Over Fans

Why It Matters

Focusing only on lead funnels can limit your growth. Building a community of fans leads to deeper loyalty and more powerful word-of-mouth.

What to Do Instead

Create spaces for your customers to connect with you and each other.
Highlight your customers’ stories and successes.
Offer value beyond the sale, like education or support.
Track and celebrate the growth of your engaged community.

Takeaway: A passionate community is your strongest asset. Focus on making advocates, not just sales.

Conclusion: Make Room for the Bold by Quitting the Old

The future belongs to marketers who know what to stop. Cutting out outdated habits clears the way for smarter, more human, and more impactful marketing. Audit your approach, let go of what’s holding you back, and give yourself space to try what’s truly bold. Progress starts with what you quit.

If you want more actionable checklists or specific examples for your business, just ask.

The Four Conversations: Blair Enns on Leading, Pricing, and Selling Expertise

Thu, 26 Jun 2025 16:13:21 +0300

The Four Conversations: Blair Enns on Leading, Pricing, and Selling Expertise written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Blair Enns, founder of Win Without Pitching and a leading authority on selling creative and consulting expertise. Blair shares insights from his new book, The Four Conversations, which distills decades of agency wisdom into a clear roadmap for moving from pitching and price-haggling to confidently leading client relationships. Listeners will discover how to shift from vendor to trusted advisor, raise closing rates, price based on value, and master the four pivotal conversations that define every successful client engagement.

About the Guest

Blair Enns is the founder of Win Without Pitching and the author of several acclaimed books on agency sales, pricing, and positioning. Over the past two decades, Blair has helped thousands of agencies and consultancies around the world move away from free pitching and price wars toward leading client engagements and charging for their expertise. His latest book, The Four Conversations, offers a practical framework for mastering the most crucial moments in every client relationship.

Actionable Insights

Most agencies close far fewer deals than they think—often just 25%. Doubling your close rate and raising prices by 20% can dramatically improve profitability.
The “four conversations” framework: Probative (demonstrate expertise), Qualifying (vet fit for both parties), Value (define value to be created and price accordingly), Closing (help the client select and commit to a path forward).
Selling expertise is not about convincing or manipulating—it’s about guiding, questioning, and facilitating the client’s best decision.
True leadership in sales means moving from statements about yourself to questions about the client, and from eagerness for the work to discernment and selectivity.
Pricing should begin with a value conversation—anchoring fees to outcomes, not just deliverables or time spent.
Productizing your service delivery is compatible with pricing each client based on value, not a fixed menu.
To move from vendor to trusted advisor, adopt the “expert’s mantra”: I am the expert, I am the prize, I’m on a mission to help, and I can only do that if you let me lead. All will not follow—and that’s okay.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

01:16 – The True Cost of Letting Clients Lead
Blair breaks down the impact of poor sales practices on close rates and pricing power.
04:45 – The Four Conversations Model
An overview of the probative, qualifying, value, and closing conversations that shape every client relationship.
06:23 – Selling as Guiding, Not Convincing
Why selling expertise is about facilitating clients’ choices, not talking them into a decision.
07:47 – From Proving Brilliance to Asking Questions
The shift from statements to questions is at the heart of expert selling.
13:37 – Value-Based Pricing in Action
Blair walks through starting the pricing conversation with outcomes, not just deliverables.
20:47 – The Expert’s Mantra
A mindset framework for making the leap from vendor to trusted advisor.

Pulled Quotes

“Selling is not talking people into things. It’s about guiding, questioning, and facilitating the client’s best decision.”
— Blair Enns

“I am the expert, I am the prize. I’m on a mission to help. I can only do that if you let me lead. All will not follow—and that’s okay.”
— Blair Enns

Resources

Website: winwithoutpitching.com

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:00.802)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Blair Enns. He's a leading voice in the creative and consulting agency world, best known as the founder of Win Without Pitching. Over two decades, he's helped thousands of agencies move from pitching and price haggling to confidently leading client engagements and charging for their expertise. We're going to talk about his latest book, The Four Conversations, a new model for selling expertise.

Book distills decades of hard won wisdom into a practical roadmap for navigating the most crucial moments in every client relationship. So Blair, welcome to the show.

Blair Enns (00:40.337)

Thank you, John.

John Jantsch (00:42.85)

So let's get some leverage. How much in your estimation do you think, what do you think the real cost day to day when agencies let clients run the show instead of leading the conversation?

Blair Enns (00:55.611)

What's the real cost of letting clients run the conversation?

John Jantsch (00:58.734)

Yeah, I mean, instead of us, you know, a lot about the four conversations is really providing leadership in the conversation. So I see a lot of agencies that show up and say, what do need? Sure, we do that. And I think that's what really leads to this price haggling, doesn't it?

Blair Enns (01:16.091)

Yeah. So if I start to, I've never contemplated the total cost here, but we could do some math on the fly. The typical agency has a closing ratio of about 25%. I can actually be more specific than that. It's oddly specific at 26%, which seems to be a universal number across all B2B sales. Now that's when we measure it. It's 26%. Self-declared, it's closer to 33%. So an agency will tell you we close one in three proposals.

when we crack open the CRM and look at it, they close one in four. I think the threshold of respectability in a closing ratio is 40%. You should strive to be over 50%. So if you're closing less than 50%, A, you're probably writing too many proposals, B, you're probably doing something wrong in the proposals. So let's say you're closing half as many proposals as you should. So there's a starting point. And then there's pricing. Are you getting, are you commanding,

your fair share of the value that you're helping to create in the typical agency is not. I can't give you a percentage on that, but I would guess it's another 20 % across the board. The typical agency could probably increase their prices by 20%. Now with existing clients, not necessarily. They can raise prices with existing clients on average. It's difficult with larger agencies. We're dealing with procurement.

But if you draw a line in time, this is after today, after you've absorbed this information, you start to sell this way, your average proposal value should climb by 20 % easily. take the size of your firm, add 20 % to the top line, double your closing ratio. That's the cost of poor selling.

John Jantsch (03:05.014)

So how much of that, I might leave myself right into a trap here, but how much of that is marketing and how much of that is sales? So in other words, you and I have written books that comes with, in some cases, perceived trust and perceived authority, expect to pay a premium in a lot of cases. So how much of that is done on the front end and how much of that is done in the sales conversation?

Blair Enns (03:09.383)

Ha ha ha.

Blair Enns (03:28.829)

Well, most of what I just talked about is what happens in the sales conversation, which to me is after the initial interaction. So if we're talking about marketing is to generate leads, that's a whole other ball of wax. Now, depending on who you are in the organization, how it thinks about sales and marketing, in some organizations, some agencies, lead generation can be seen as a sales function.

And in others, it's seen as a marketing function. Typically, it's seen as a bit of both or a specific combination of both in the average firm. The better your marketing goes the saying, the less selling you have to do. But that's an interpretation of that statement. It's really about seeing that statement views selling as lead generation. But there's all this stuff that I just referenced, which is what happens after you begin the conversation with the lead. So there's a whole other

area of improvement to be had under the banner of marketing.

John Jantsch (04:28.942)

Yeah, and it's probably the combination just amplifies everything, right? The combination of both of those being effective amplifies everything. So let's just go right to the title of the book. What are the four conversations and why do they keep happening no matter how seasoned somebody is?

Blair Enns (04:45.349)

Yeah, so the four conversations, this is a model. A model is a view of the world, a way of organizing complexity. All models are wrong. Some are useful. The book opens with that quote. So I'm not saying the sale always happens in a series of four linear and discrete conversations, but it is helpful to think of it that way. So the four conversations and their objective are the probative conversation, where your goal is to prove your expertise to the client and move in their mind from a position of a vendor to the expert.

That's the conversation that happens without your president. Your marketing would be under the domain of the probative conversation. It's a conversation in construct only. It happens through your agents of thought leadership, referral, referrers, and your marketing. And then you have the three person to person conversation that happened after that, which you would think of as the sales conversations. There's the qualifying conversation, which is the vetting conversation. You're vetting the lead to see if this is something worth spending your time on.

There's the value conversation where you're uncovering the value to be created and the share of that value you might command in the form of fees. So you're starting to set not price, but pricing guidance, rough approximate pricing guidance based on the value to be created rather than the cost of your solutions. And then the final conversation is the closing conversation where you help the client commit and select, select and commit to a path forward.

John Jantsch (06:11.224)

You know what I love about as I listen to you talk about all four of those conversations, they're not about like manipulating or getting this thing that you want done. They're really about creating value for both parties, right?

Blair Enns (06:23.109)

Yeah, I'm a big believer in the idea that selling is not talking people into things. I think, you know, we make this distinction or we I make the distinction in the book, you know, between expert and vendor. And you think of your expert self, the way you operate as an expert, you're in your relationships with your clients. So after sale, the way you show up, you're kind of you're an advisor. You facilitate choice. You point out the pros and cons of decisions.

John Jantsch (06:28.59)

Right.

Blair Enns (06:52.061)

You give the client some decisions to make, you point out the pros and cons of those decisions, and I think that's how you should navigate the sale as well.

John Jantsch (06:59.63)

I talked to a lot of agencies that I'm sure you've heard this quite often as well. They feel like they're giving away their expertise, pitching for free, giving consultations to show that they know what they're talking about and really all along the way kind of giving it away. do you get people out of that place of being stuck?

Blair Enns (07:19.121)

Well, there's no short answer to the question of how you get people out of that. You write a book on a model, you get them to read the book and implement the guidance in the book is the short one. But as you point out, it's hard. I myself, I struggle with this a lot. I've for years, it's been the hardest thing for me to go from seeing myself as the person with the answers, the subject matter expert, to the person with the questions. So if you think of how a typical marketer shows up in the sale,

John Jantsch (07:45.294)

Mm.

Blair Enns (07:47.655)

They wanna prove their brilliance. And yeah, we do that in the probative conversation, but that's the conversation that happens without you present. Once you're in a conversation with an individual, instead of trying to prove your brilliance, you should arm yourself with a set of questions. And so in our model of the four conversations, each conversation has a framework or set of frameworks, has a specific objective, which I shared with you, and then a framework or set of frameworks.

for navigating to that objective. Now those frameworks are almost all questions. So the short answer to how is you go from statements about yourself to questions about the client.

John Jantsch (08:29.058)

Well, and those statements often are not just about yourself. They might actually be offering solutions, right? Yeah. Yeah. number two, qualifying. I know that this is not your take on this, but I know a lot of people hear that qualifying and they're thinking, it comes off more like I'm going to see if you qualify to work with me. you know, and it can actually be a little off putting if not done.

Blair Enns (08:35.377)

Free advice, yeah.

John Jantsch (08:56.91)

How do you approach making sure that the client doesn't feel like they're being evaluated?

Blair Enns (09:04.283)

Yeah, I think some people do overplay that idea. So you can take this idea of qualifying and you can put on a spectrum. At one end, there's the client qualifying you. At the other end, there's you qualifying the client. And most of these qualifying conversations, the typical listener wouldn't think of them as a qualifying conversation. They would think of them as a credentials conversation or a credentials meeting. So what does that mean if we put it back into this context of qualifying? It means you're trying to qualify for the client.

The assumption is this is a good fit for you. Now you're trying to prove to them that they're a good fit. And you have to do that and there's a way to do that, but the conversation is all about you first making sure that they are a good fit for you. That implies that you've actually thought about who is a good fit for you. What is your ideal client profile? Who do you want to do business with? Who will you not do business with? How much money do you need somebody to spend? And so,

John Jantsch (09:52.046)

Yeah, yeah.

Blair Enns (10:00.305)

You can have a very business-like conversation using a framework to organize questions around that without coming across like an ass. But in the wrong hands, somebody can overplay that idea and they can make the client feel uncomfortable.

John Jantsch (10:08.257)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:16.151)

You know, one of the things over the years that I've liked to use as a qualifier is there are certain behaviors that the client has or what they believe in terms of what value is and how a solution gets done. And in some cases, we get very good or most people get very good at understanding, this is a problem I can fix well. I know I could do this one. So where does that come into the qualifying, those types of considerations?

Blair Enns (10:43.239)

Well, you have to guard against that. so qualifying is the vetting conversation. There's a tone in the qualifying conversation. It's a tone of discernment. So you're professional, you're clinical, you're, if you're getting really enthusiastic about the opportunity, you're just suppressing that for the time being. And then once you ask your questions and you determine that there is, this is a good fit for you, then you move to the next conversation, the value conversation. You can, your tone of discernment can move to a tone of deep interest. You decide,

John Jantsch (10:51.106)

Yeah.

Blair Enns (11:13.245)

You ask your questions, you get your answers, and you decide, you know what, this is a good fit. And you would say to the client, on the surface, I think this is a really good fit. I can see my team getting very excited about this. I'm not saying I'm getting excited about it. I'm still trying to moderate my enthusiasm to make sure my enthusiasm for the project or the client does not exceed their enthusiasm for me.

John Jantsch (11:23.374)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:36.347)

Can we stick on that for a minute? Why is that an issue?

Blair Enns (11:4

How AI Is Revolutionizing PR and SEO: Real-World Strategies with Jon Mest of JustReachOut.io

Wed, 25 Jun 2025 18:26:41 +0300

How AI Is Revolutionizing PR and SEO: Real-World Strategies with Jon Mest of JustReachOut.io written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch welcomes Jon Mest, founder of JustReachOut.io and ChatRank.ai, to break down the evolving relationship between AI, public relations, and SEO. Jon shares how AI is shifting the landscape for marketers, agencies, and entrepreneurs, moving effective outreach away from mass automation and toward authentic, human-driven storytelling. The conversation covers why PR is making a comeback, how AI-powered answer engines like ChatGPT and Google Overviews are changing what it means to “rank,” and what practical steps brands should take to get found—and trusted—in a noisy digital world.

Guest Bio

Jon Mest is the founder of JustReachOut.io, a platform empowering entrepreneurs, agencies, and consultants to land media coverage by pitching journalists directly, and ChatRank.ai, a solution for AI-driven SEO visibility. With over a decade of hands-on experience in PR and search, Jon has helped thousands of marketers simplify their outreach and keep SEO rooted in what actually works—enabling brands to tell authentic stories that resonate, earn trust, and drive results.

Key Takeaways

AI is a powerful tool to guide, not replace, human-driven PR and SEO. The best results come when AI augments authentic outreach, not automates it at scale.
Traditional PR—authentic storytelling, earned media, micro-influencer outreach—is regaining importance as search engines and answer engines prioritize authority, expertise, and credible citations.
AI-powered answer engines (like ChatGPT and Google’s AI Overviews) are changing the rules for SEO. Brands now need to be hyper-specific and authoritative on their niche to get surfaced in high-intent results.
Showing up in AI overviews is the new “number one spot”—but it requires a combination of strong, relevant content and third-party validation through PR and backlinks.
Personalization and relevance are non-negotiable in modern outreach. Mass, generic pitches are filtered out, while targeted, story-driven pitches cut through the noise.
The “hook” in your pitch or subject line is crucial. Journalists and influencers need a compelling, unique reason to pay attention—and proprietary data or exclusive stories make you stand out.
Social proof is still powerful: smaller wins with niche or local publications can build a track record that leads to coverage in larger, national outlets.
Brands should amplify and repurpose earned media where their audience is—whether it’s podcasts, trade journals, or niche blogs—rather than chasing only big-name coverage.

Great Moments & Timestamps

00:00 – John introduces Jon Mest, JustReachOut.io, and ChatRank.ai
00:52 – Jon explains how AI can empower, not replace, authentic PR and SEO
02:28 – Why PR is making a comeback in an AI-driven SEO world
05:20 – The story behind ChatRank.ai and adapting to Google’s AI Overviews
07:54 – What it takes for brands to get featured in answer engines and AI overviews
10:01 – Why specific, authoritative content wins in both search and answer engines
12:02 – The biggest mistakes (and best practices) in pitching journalists today
13:46 – Why personalization is crucial—and mass pitching doesn’t work
14:56 – The power of a strong “hook” and building ongoing media relationships
16:25 – How social proof and stepping-stone coverage help brands earn bigger features
18:51 – Why amplifying coverage where your audience lives matters more than chasing broad reach
20:17 – Where to find Jon Mest, JustReachOut.io, and ChatRank.ai

Pulled Quotes

“AI is an amazing tool to help guide the human-driven marketing approach. But you, the human, have to go in there and tell your story the right way.”

“Personalization and authenticity win—mass, generic pitches just get filtered out.”

“Showing up in AI overviews is the new number one spot…but you have to be hyper-specific, authoritative, and tell a story your audience cares about.”

Resources & Links

JustReachOut.io – AI-powered PR and outreach platform
ChatRank.ai – AI-driven SEO visibility platform

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